‘Modi Doesn’t Understand Sikhs, Nothing Enrages Them More Than Being Called Anti National‘—Shourie

In an interview with Karan Thapar for The Wire Arun Shourie, who is also a reputed author and a former editor of the Indian Express, said the Modi government does not understand the character and traditions of the Sikh community. He said, “a Sikh is always ready for a fight and, when he fights, he fights to the finish.” He added that a Sikh “learns this with his mother’s milk”. On the other hand, the government thinks “everyone can be purchased and everyone is open to a deal”. Arun Shourie said that “nothing is more important to a Sikh than the notion of self-respect”. He said a Sikh “will go to any extent to get what he thinks is right”. Arun Shourie told The Wire that the government doesn’t understand “the strong sense of community and sacrifice” which is part of the Sikh tradition. It gives the Sikh community solidarity that most other communities in India do not have.

Hello and welcome to a special interview which was published on the wires Youtube channel and with the great personality today is one of India's foremost intellectuals who fears that despite the fact the government is now showing clear signs of suffering. its position versus the sikh farmers. if it's not careful it could still end up converting a dispute between farmers and the government into a more serious crisis between sikhs and the rest of the country and thus reopen a pressure that we thought we had healed 40 years ago joining me now to discuss his views and his apprehensions and the extent to which they've been allowed by yesterday's offer by the government to hold in suspension the farm laws for perhaps up to two years is the well-known author journalist and former minister Arun shori let's start with your fear that if the government isn't sensitive in its handling of the sikh farmer's Dispute.

It would convert a farmers versus government problem into a greater crisis between the sikhs and the rest of the country to what extent is your apprehension allayed by yesterday's announcement that the government could consider holding in suspension for up to three years the farm loss and to what extent despite that announcement does your fear remain valid.

actually this is a wonderful development and that the government has at last climbed down from its ego because as you can see nothing but the ego was in the way now they are prepared to say oh clause by clause discussion and yet in parliament they refuse to have clause by clause discussion they refused to send it to the standing committee they refused a vote a proper vote in the rajya sabha and the same thing that now yes we will not implement these laws for two years till yesterday all these reforms were so urgent that you had to bring them in with an ordinance see that's a very important point that the advantage always says if you let your ego determine your decisions.

So it is good that this has happened and it's a great relief because i have been as you rightly said i've been anxious from the very beginning that what was and what has been a farmer's versus farm laws issue became a farmer's versus delhi issue and if the way the government was proceeding went on then it would become a six versus delhi issue and if some other incident occurred firing or some other you know unfortunate thing then of course it would become a six versus delhi issue and there were good reasons for that apprehension but tell me this are you still apprehensive that the potential for this to become a sikh versus delhi or seek versus india issue remains or feels now substantially allowed well it will depend on the outcome because you see.

This is the standard operating procedure of the government every issue is made into a hindu versus non-hindu issue and everything is stoked in this way so that you know whether it is the citizenship that caa or it is some demonstration in daddy it's always made into a hindu versus non-hindus issue and secondly in this way in this case the government itself was seeing this as a sikhs versus an issue dealing with the six i'll give you an example when mr modi thinks there is a need for a photo opportunity where does he go does he go to a temple no he goes to the bangladwara tell me then sorry to what extent is the offer to hold the farm laws in suspension undermined by the comments made by the bjp from dosa yesterday calling the farmers terrorists calling them palestinians accusing them of carrying ak-47 guns do you think she's alone misguided voice or do you think she reflects the deeper thinking of the government which is the two no i certainly feel that no mp today into bjp no minister can say anything like this without central not just clearance but direction and it is not this mp is just the latest what was ravishankar bashar saying he's the law minister.

He said this is they are being backed by the tukrita gang isn't it at the same time the same fellows were saying they are in the pay of pakistanis and chinese they are kalestanis they are naxalites and saying all this you are talking to them why are you talking to them if they are out to break the country that is one point but the second is imagine that you are being abused in this way and at the same time then do you believe anything that the government says in the talks with you the talks are then justified. so your fear is that although on the one hand the government has offered to hold the farm laws in suspension for two years if this attitude of treating the sikhs as kalistanis as anti-national as people holding ak-47s continues and clearly justice the bjp from dosa did it only yesterday so that suggests it's continuing and if it continues your fear that we are pushing the sikhs away your fear that we are converting a farmer's dispute into a worse problem with the sikh community as a whole that fear remains valid yes that certainly remains and please don't think it is just this lone mp it is the attorney general who has said the same thing in the supreme court and he has filed an affidavit as far as the newspaper reports go stating this uh to the supreme court so the government certainly believes that these khalistanis and so on.

Are you know in some way steering this this education and they don't even realize these mps don't realize. These ministers who keep abusing everybody do not realize the attorney general does not realize what he is saying do you mean to say you don't ask yourself then what is the government been doing that today the chinese are not just occupying positions in ladakh or in arunachal or pakistan not just on the border they have come and been able to get people to surround your capital of delhi i understand what mean. let me then at this point try and understand the basis of your fear and apprehension you begin by saying that government doesn't understand punjabis it doesn't understand sikhs in particular explain to me what is it about sikhs in punjabis the government doesn't understand and appreciate just one point before firstly their insensitivity also they think that nobody will be affected by their abuse and this is an insensitive government migrant workers nothing.

So that insensitivity is one point second is as you rightly say they just do not understand us punjabis and sikhs in particular first is self-respect nothing is more important than that these people are used to need of modis and chokesies and all these fellows who are open to deals the simple farmer and certainly the sikkis are not open to a deal he will throw away everything for what he thinks is right for what he thinks is his honor for what he thinks is his word he has given his word i'll get these laws repealed he will not go home before that is done and if i will say so that is what this this government doesn't understand because for them a word is nothing it is just another joomla they don't understand that at the core of your apprehension is your appreciation and understanding which you believe has been molded by the unique sikh history what is it that you believe this government needs to open its eyes to i think they must understand sikh is always ready for a fight and for him every fight is a fight to the finish and they learns this with his mother's milk he's brought up on the history of the great sacrifices of Guru Teg Bahadur and The children of guru gobind singh we known as Char SahibZade but not only history it is the recent history today.

You know we look upon these akhadis as just a political party but in the 1920s and 30s they were among the great reform movements of india to take back the gurdwaras from the corrupt months and the sacrifices they made you know to get the nankana cyber guru i'll just give one instance do you know how many sikhs were killed how many bodies were found in the assad in gandhi's collected works you will find 156 were killed by the mahants people that and yet not they did not flinch that's the second point you're making that the sikhs as a community have a great tradition a of community spirit they stand together their solidarity is something the rest of the country doesn't fully understand and the second point you're making is that the sikhs also have a great tradition of sacrifice and the two together you're suggesting means they are implacable force if you rub them up the wrong way no also if the seeks are wrong yes you should rub them up and you should but you have to talk to them you have to explain how they are wrong but one point was this business of being sticking to your word second which the government doesn't understand and also i think the government does not understand the strong sense of community and the song the strong tradition of service among the sikhs among the punjabis i am sure that these fellows sitting with their very expensive shawls and very many jackets which now outnumber the shoes of emilia marcos they don't understand they would have been surprised at the fact.

So that these tractors came not only that suddenly the longer started suddenly somebody came and put up toilets suddenly somebody came and had songs for them because they do not understand the spirit of service they do not understand the spirit of community that is why when they saw this food they suddenly started saying oh this money is coming from pakistan and china how absolutely abhorrent and idiotic now you don't think that we people serve each other now one of the things that has happened you mentioned it earlier is that many bjp mps but also bjp ministers you mentioned ravishankar prasad have accused the sikh protesting farmers of being anti-national of being pakistani or falling under the influence of the great but in fact sikh farmers and now haryanvi farmers who are joining them in equal measure actually contribute proportion of their population more to the armed forces than probably any other community in the country.

So when their sons their husbands their fathers are accused of being anti-natural do you believe that this inflicts a wound and a pain that the rest of us can't fully understand because our connection with the defense forces is very different they take great pride in defending the country yes and nothing but nothing enrages a sincere man then a person who's whose sons and as you said brothers and husbands are in defending the country to be called international nothing will enrage him more than that and you are absolutely right one reason is that in punjab in haryana being in the services is a part of the weave of life every family every village will have people there but um probably in other provinces maybe gujarat the proportion of population that goes into the services would probably be one-ninth to one-tenth of the population in punjab can i can i interrupt and give you the figures the actual figures brought into the public domain by firstpost.com on april the 22nd 2019. punjab's recruitment into the army is 50.89 per lakh haryanas is 45.41 per lakh gujarat on the other hand is just 5.24 it is 10 times less than punjab nine times less than haryana do you fear do you fear that this government or perhaps i should broaden it and say do you fear that politicians whose association either physical or emotional with the army is minimal politicians very rarely have brothers husbands sons who become jewish and therefore do you fear that politicians and perhaps this government in particular doesn't understand the import the terrible hurt.

When they stand up and call sikh farmers anti-national as the bjp mp from zawasa did yesterday as ravi shankar prashad did a little while earlier absolutely and this and you see it is not just populations like gujarat it is these specific leaders i actually if i may say there is no government in india just these two persons mr modi and mr amit shah these fellows their stocking trade is buying and selling buying and selling mlas breaking parties and so on how can they understand the simple farmer or the sikh who lives by an oath when he leaves the house he says don't wait for me when he takes a note he will never give up on that oath.

These people don't understand because for them do not understand the psyche of sikh farmers they don't understand how they can deeply wound seek society by accusing them of being anti-national they just don't understand that you're saying absolutely absolutely i don't want to say that i can read this but certainly i uh this is certainly the case that they just don't understand and they better understand picked up by some of the papers including the economic times is that ex-servicemen are now in increasing numbers joining the protest apparently many of those servicemen are coming to protest in their own uniforms even with their own medals thus combining together their love of the army their commitment to india's defense with the protest is there a fear that if today ex-servicemen are joining the protest.

It would one day start affecting soldiers because you know that in punjab and haryana the children of ex-servicemen joined the army in very large numbers so are you worried that if it's ex-servicemen today it could be serving soldiers tomorrow well uh i no i think firstly this situation could already have become a six versus delhi six versus india issue but for i mean every government was going that way the abuse was pushing them that way it is the innate loyalty of the sikhs and his devotion to the country in their innate loyalty of the punjabi and the haryana to the country that has prevented the situation from going that far and i don't i think the army remains a very disciplined force but naturally it is not a in a hermetically sealed job they are people from other families they are persons from our community so it's not just that because ex-servicemen are there therefore servicemen will be affected it is that because the farmers are suffering in the cold their sons and brothers and husbands and they will naturally be affected directly.

You don't need the root of ex-servicemen but as you rightly say that makes it more probable but i do not think that that is the urgent necessity and certainly the government should take no comfort from the fact that today there is there have been reports only of minimal talk in let's say in the barracks about the farmer's agitation that would be the completely wrong way of looking at what is going on in the minds of servicemen you just have to think of your own brother or your own you know close relative if he's suffering in this way then would you not be affected yes you would be affected now one of the flash points that could be looming on the horizon and i'm worrying myself very carefully is the determination of the farmers to carry out an alternative republic day parade on the 26th of january.

The government is making strenuous efforts to ensure this doesn't happen but given that the farmers have repeatedly said they do not intend disrespect to or in any way to disturb and disrupt the official republic day parade should the government be that what it should they be attempting to stop the farmers carrying out an alternate tractor trolley parade of their own you know as the supreme court says these are law and order issues the police will determine but we should take the farmers at their word now you are trusting your own law and self-respect in their hands allow them you know to go around delhi with the chakra of the parikrama of the outer ring road what is the great problem again if it is a genuine apprehension that oh then they will never vacate the outer ring road okay that is one point but if you are apprehension is just the ego or that they will out have television rankings ratings more for their period than for my parade then that would be quite wrong to do it what do i mean here has evoked a very strong vocal response from the sikh diaspora in britain and in canada in particular and we know that there are elements of khalisani influence that are deeply embedded in that diaspora is that a matter of concern well.

Actually you know it would not be they would not get worked up if we would not let the situation in in our home deteriorate this is exactly the case that happened in the 1980s there was no khalistan movement there was there's a wonderful book by a man called gps sidhu who was a very senior officer special secretary raw who was tasked to be in canada to monitor this to tour europe to monitor this to tour the united states to monitor this and there was nothing but as this situation became worse and worse in punjab because mrs gandhi and her little team were started believing in their cleverness then naturally what those people thought had an echo effect within punjab okay but the thing to be addressed is not what those fellows are thinking there do not let the situation get bad here i understand in other words the control of the situation is in the government's hands do not let it deteriorate on your doorstep because if it is okay on your doorstep there's no danger from the diaspora either let me come back as we approach the end of this interview to your fear and concern of the government's insensitivity creating a bigger problem what do you say to those who've heard you and would respond around surely is exaggerating he's needlessly panicking he's allowing his imagination to run right this fear that we could push the sikhs to a corner and repeat what happened in the 70s and 80s is unrealistic how do you respond to that well i think the time to heed a warning is early enough don't let the situation deteriorate and then suddenly you say oh we should have listened to so and so i do hope that my fears are unfounded but you know today what is happening is that just because of this announcement with the government that we are now prepared to do x y and z we all feel that the temperatures have.

gone down but you have to look at the way the government approaches these things because this issue can suddenly flare up again tomorrow after all these are the people against whom tear gas was used against whom water cannon was used in this in the cold bitter uh winter cold of delhi and suddenly these are the people on which you were hurling abuse these are the persons on which you say you have given an affidavit to the supreme court that their pakistanis so has the nature of the situation changed yes a concession seems to have been voiced which is very good and the farmers are considering this with an open mind wonderful but unless the government sees that this is a protest not just about farm laws it is the result of their word no longer being trusted it is the result of their um you know of uh their subordinating all institutions so this the supreme court tries to step into the pharmacy no we don't want to listen to you in a nutshell your fear your apprehension your worry that the government can easily mishandle a farmer's versus government problem and convert it into a crisis between the sikhs and the rest of the country that fear remains valid the government has to remain one small step but you're still worried that if voices like the dosa mp continue to call these farmers terrorists if the attorney general files a affidavit allegedly or purportedly giving proof of khalistani links.

You could once again push the farmers to that brink from which in the 80s it was very hard to draw them back that danger remains in your eyes yes and it ordered no therefore i would i i congratulate the government for overcoming its uh ego and stand what mistaking obstinacy for firmness and agreeing to go the extra mile but i would urge first never rely never think that cleverness space cleverness is a boomerang it will come back on you no realize that nobody trusts your word because you are you know you have been you have made such a mockery of your own word please amend that third do not prostitute every institution because in the end institutions are the ones through which countries have to be run and you will have nobody to help you in that and finally please change your ways this business of dealing with your own people with tear gas with abuse with water cannons that's just going to push people further and farther away and this is the result not this agitation is the result not just a farm laws it is because people are now saying oh yeah enough is enough of the way this government handles things all right i'm sorry let's leave it there you've sounded a very clear warning you've said to the government they've taken one sensible badly needed step by offering to hold the farm laws in a bayerns for up to two years.

but you said if the attitude of insensitivity continues the example of which is the bjp mp and dosa quality the farmers terrorists just yesterday if that attitude continues if you continue to treat sikh farmers without understanding their psyche and character as if they were anti-national then the potential of converting a dispute with farmers into a bigger crisis with the sikh community remains and that fear remains valid thank you very much for sharing and explaining your apprehension let's hope we don't get to that print but you have opened the eyes not just of the country but of the government to the peril with which it plays if it continues to treat farmers insensitively and call them anti-national and terrorists thank you very much indeed take care stay safe thank you karen thank you very much thank you.